Daring to Suck: A Grace Askew Podcast

S2E3: A Songwriter's Tale- The Life and Music of Ken Hart

• Grace Askew • Season 2 • Episode 3

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What happens when a Mississippi man with a passion for writing finally makes his way to Nashville? We had the pleasure of sitting down with the incredibly talented songwriter Ken Hart to find out. In this episode, we explored Ken's journey to the heart of the music industry, where he found his place among legendary songwriters at the Frank Brown Songwriters' Festival and learned to navigate the Nashville scene with the help of mentors and friends.

Throughout our conversation, Ken openly shares his experiences and insights on the challenges and realities of the music industry. We discuss the limited revenue streams for songwriters, the importance of diversifying income, and how his sobriety has impacted his creativity and focus in the demanding world of music. Ken's generosity with his gifts and his dedication to his craft are truly inspiring, as he reminds us that it's essential to share our art, even when it may not feel like a hit at the time.

Join us for a fascinating look into the life of a passionate songwriter as we follow Ken Hart's winding road to Nashville. From his early days writing poems and teaching himself to play guitar, to his experiences touring and learning from music legends, Ken's story offers valuable lessons for anyone pursuing their dreams in the music industry or beyond. Don't miss this incredible conversation with a truly remarkable artist.

Ken's Instagram: @kenneth.c.hart

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Outside of these inspiring interviews, Grace offers further artistic growth opportunities through semi-annual songwriting retreats held in Memphis, TN and 1:1 Zoom coaching! All details can be found at her website: GraceAskew.com

Ken:

Got it All right.

Grace:

We are back with yet another episode of season two of Daring to Suck. This is episode three and I have been more than pumped more pumped than usual to do this particular episode, because I've had a great fortune to get to know this next writer On a more personal level. we've written, i think, six songs five songs together now and I just feel like we've got that that that Delta Southern blood as well. So my next guest is Kim Hart. Thank you so much, kim.

Ken:

Thank you, Grace. It's good to see you again. We had a good week, didn't we?

Grace:

Oh yeah, even Jesus, Y'all, y'all aren't ready for this song. So, yeah, I was just really intrigued to get to ask you some more personal questions, and we you know we're usually pressed on time a little bit when we hop into those curb writing rooms in Nashville. So this is nice to just like not have writing on the table right now and just ask you your personal story, which I've gotten to know a little bit of. but I want to dive deeper today.

Grace:

So the theme of this is kind of like the road to Nashville, and I want to hear about your personal road to Nashville. I mean, what? what started? how did that start First?

Ken:

of all, obviously you know, was writing and playing a lot back home in Mississippi and have been aware, aware of you for a very long time And but I've always leaned towards the songwriter more so than the recording artist. And I was so blessed in the late nineties to go play the Frank Brown songwriter's festival. I think 1997 was my first year to go play that.

Grace:

Wow.

Ken:

And and that first weekend. I mean I could roll off the names and nobody would probably know who they are, but they're all in the songwriter's hall of fame today And a lot of them unfortunately have passed. But I was just. It's just pure luck to wind up in a room with these guys who became my friends and who became my mentors And you know they've written some of the biggest songs in music.

Grace:

Yeah, what are some of the names for it?

Ken:

Well, wayne Carson for one. he wrote the letter He wrote always on my mind. He wrote those Gary Stewart hits a whiskey trip and drinking thing And just I see the want to in your eyes and just on and on and on. and sunny Throckmorton, who wrote cowboy rides away and middle-aged crazy and trying to love two women just off. Bruce Chanel, who wrote Hey, baby, wow. Rock killer, who wrote working on surrender.

Grace:

And it was a big part of your story, right?

Ken:

Rock killer latched on to me. You know the most. Out of all those guys I've spent the most time with him. He's a gosh, he's 82 now and he's doing great in a really sweet spot in his life. But he he made the first introduction for me to his publisher at the time in Nashville. My name, terry Cho, who passed away last year, but Terry, you know, instantly became a mentor up here and was a fan of what I did.

Grace:

And how old would you have been at the time when that introduction happened?

Ken:

I was, i was old, i was well, i say I was older than most, i was probably 33 or four before I ever, you know, even considered, you know, presenting myself in Nashville. Yeah, i've always wanted to be a writer and been a writer since I was a little boy, but I didn't really know, you know what it was up here that was going on And it was something I even wanted to participate in And, quite frankly and transparently, until I went to Frank Brown that first time, i really didn't understand that that other people wrote songs recording ours. I thought everybody that was recording was writing their own songs. I say that And then I'll also tell you that you know, which is part of my personality, i would look at record jackets and you know, and see the names and see these songwriter names, but I just didn't put it together.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

You know that these artists weren't writing their own songs. And it just. I mean, i met Taylor Rhodes that first weekend. We wrote several of those big air Smith hits crying, and some of those songs. and Russell Smith you know amazing rhythm aces, russell Smith and Tony Arata I could just go on with this whole list of people I met that one weekend.

Grace:

Yeah, And Frank Brown, or in Nashville.

Ken:

No at Frank Brown. These multi hit songwriter, you know guys, and a lot of them, i'm grateful became my friends, and that was in 97. And it was. It was another 10 years Grace before I, like, really showed up in Nashville.

Grace:

Yeah, but so in the meantime you were touring right.

Ken:

You were touring and writing and put out a couple of really bad records.

Grace:

I feel like you're not a true artist if you don't have a background out there.

Ken:

They're really bad And I hope they've all disappeared somehow. But yeah, i played a lot. There's a venue in Mississippi called Taylor Grocery, yeah, and, and I booked the music there for a really long time. So I met a lot of people, you know, through that process. A couple of summers we brought Nashville writers down to do showcases during the summer. By the time I actually decided I wanted to come to Nashville to write songs, i already knew a ton of people Right, which is which is a big blessing, because I don't know what I was like.

Ken:

well, do not go there that way And I don't know what it's. I mean, it's gotta be. it's hard, you know, to do it the way I did it, and it's gotta be even harder to show up here, you know, not knowing a soul.

Grace:

I did that and I and I left. I didn't sail anymore Because, well, first of all, I was paying. I was touring a lot to pay the rent. That meant I was never there in the first place. But you know, on top of that not knowing, not knowing anyone, it's a really isolating feeling And also kind of just being shy and all that stuff. But yeah, you certainly had an upper hand and having this community built around you already.

Ken:

So blessed, so blessed. And you know, if people come here like people that want to be recording artists and stars or whatever, they come here and they spend a little bit of time here but then they gotta go out. Yeah, you know, to make their living, yes, but you know, just purely being a songwriter man, this is the place to be for me. I can't speak for anybody else, but for me it's. It's where the best commercial writers are, it's where the best non-commercial writers are. You know, for my money and my time, and I've just loved it.

Grace:

Well, it's an A market. for a reason It is the top 1%. I totally agree, and I'm a little deeper here. What is your personal why? But when it comes to just what keeps you writing, maybe it touches on something from your childhood that you picked up a guitar or like. what kind of your first taste of creating a song when you were younger, like, did that become your why?

Ken:

What a welcome. I did the first song I wrote. When do we learn how to write them? We're seven or eight years old. I suppose, So it was then. Yeah, i just remember my grandparents had these Eddie Arnold records and you know my grandfather would dance with her and the kids. He was a truck driver so he'd come in from the road on Fridays and I'd witnessed that, but it was always that music.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And I was instinctually curious, you know, about how the words were put together. And so I just I mean, i wrote poems, which are songs, you know, more or less, and I just started making up words and you know, i didn't share them with a lot of people. I don't know how deep you want to go, but I was. You know, the environment I was being raised in was not conducive to that. So I had this. I had this creative burn happening inside of me, but in this fear of, oh shit, I can't do this.

Ken:

Right, so it wasn't encouraged, it wasn't seen at all A boy maybe should be doing or is it not encouraged at all on any level? And so I was. I think I was 24 years old, probably before I actually shared something that I had written.

Grace:

That makes your story more inspiring. I feel like.

Ken:

Well, it was, it is what it is. And you know I didn't start playing guitar until I was maybe 18. And a friend of mine down in Batesville, mississippi, showed me, you know, the major chords and then showed me how to play Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain. And there we go. You know buying records and I play by ear. I totally can't read music and I can read charts a little bit, but it's all just been by ear and by feel and hearing it in my head and being able to figure out where to play it. You know, kind of thing.

Grace:

What happened in 24 to where you were. You just out of the house and yeah, i was gone.

Ken:

I graduated college. I was living in Northwest Arkansas, in Fayetteville at the time, which was a really funky, groovy place to live.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

You know, in the mid nineties they had not opened that new interstate over there at the time. So if you wanted to be in Fayetteville you really had to want to be there.

Grace:

Right.

Ken:

Not an easy way to get there And I met this hillbilly named Jed Clampett and he had a band and was doing solo things and he taught me a lot about scales and he put me on stage Thanksgiving night of 1996.

Grace:

I love that you remember your first gig.

Ken:

Oh, georgia's Majestic, Lounge.

Grace:

I knew it.

Ken:

I'll never forget it. I was scared to death and you know, all the guys in the band were like look man, when they end out, fade out. you know, just smile and act like you know what you're doing. So that volume knob is a miracle, right, yeah. So I faked it. I faked it for a long time, but like really being around him and playing his original music, that's probably when it like really kicked into me. you know that I'm going to do this.

Ken:

And back up to 1986 when Steve Earl's guitar town record came out to see him open for Hank Jr. and I don't, i didn't even stay for Hank Jr's, you know, portion of the show, because and I'm still a big Hank Jr fan but Steve Earl's performance just I don't know, it just set me on fire. And I learned all of those songs word for word, note for note, and you know. and then fast forward to 1995 when I met the Clampage, and that's the first time I remember. I remember I laid in bed one night and this whole song just came out And I thought I was losing my mind. Yeah, about one o'clock in the morning, and I got in the truck and I went to my girlfriend's house at the time and woke her up and I said I got a playlist for you. And she was like, well, what is that? And I said, well, i just wrote it. And of course she called BS on the whole thing.

Grace:

I want to hear this song now.

Ken:

It's been, it's been, it's just been that way ever since. You know I just I have to do it It, you know, as life has progressed and coming out of addiction and into sobriety and divorce and and raising daughters by myself, and it's, it's absolutely my out. You know it keeps me sane. I write every day. I may not write a song every day, but I'm either journaling, working on a book idea. Yeah, it's you up about helping me write a movie script? My brain is just my brain's constantly on write mode.

Grace:

I love that.

Ken:

I got you That's awesome, so I get up and write every day.

Grace:

It counts, even if it's not a song. I definitely count, like journaling, as a form of creative expression, if not not being put to music. So we both had those years and years of interfering under our belt And personally I think touring is something that has helped me just be an adaptable human being, because you, you have to have such a thermometer for the room on what's the vibe of this audience and being a chameleon to different walks of life. Would you agree with that And your mini?

Ken:

degree. Absolutely, absolutely, because you never know what you're going to get.

Grace:

Oh, and I feel like I have to be a better parent in a weird way. I never saw that coming. But like being a touring artist is like great training ground for being just quick on your feet and like thinking up solutions to whatever's going on in the room.

Ken:

I don't know if that's mainly for me. It, it. It helped me be more open as a human being.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

And more accepting.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

Because, let's face it, you know, fort Collins, colorado, has a different mentality.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Than Memphis or Nashville or wherever you you name the place Dallas, Tulsa, It's all a different. I mean everybody's. We're the same, but we're different, Right, Yeah, And so it, it, it. It helps me be a lot more open to different.

Grace:

Yeah, That's kind of my question is like what is your biggest takeaway So that makes total sense to me is just being a more open minded person in general.

Ken:

That's probably the biggest takeaway. But you also learn let me see how to say this right. Uh, you up being up here on music row, we, we can very easily get into this tunnel. 16th and 17th Avenue is a tunnel right And, and and it's easy to forget that there's billions of people that aren't here, who are truck drivers, to pastors, to doctors, to midwives, to counter clerks, to, and all those people inevitably show up at a show.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

No. At the same time, and they honestly could care less what's going on on 16th and 17th Avenue in Nashville, absolutely So I think having all that experience before I committed full time to writing songs in Nashville has helped me. I got lost in the tunnel for a few years early on and consequently my life upended itself and it's just a massive train wreck and I had to disappear. For at least five years I probably wasn't active down there and I'm just two, maybe three years back into being active full time on Music Grove and I have a totally different perspective now.

Grace:

Oh yeah, I'm sure.

Ken:

I'm able to go in and do my work and leave it there.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And get back to living on the outside, as I like to call it.

Grace:

Yeah, you were spot on with that. I feel like early in my career I can remember resisting Nashville for a specific reason that I wanted to have lived on the road before committing to the industry. That was a very intentional step that I took. I wanted to earn my street cred and I can't really think of a better way to say it really And I think that's certainly what you did in your career just hopping out on the road and living in kind of the real world of all these different parts of the country and experiencing real stories.

Ken:

Well, I think I know for me. I can only speak for me, but I needed to. You know, songwriting and music was this all consuming part of my brain, Like I just it's all I wanted to do, It's all I wanted to talk about, It's all I wanted to, you know, be about. And when you go out there and you go into a club on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, whatever the day is, and it's you and the bartender, you find out really quick. You know what the true perspective needs to be about, what we do.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

And then it becomes a matter of well, am I this or is this a hobby, Or do I need to figure out how? to, you know, work, a regular job? And it just creates this perspective of how bad do I really want to do this.

Grace:

Absolutely.

Ken:

And you know, fortunately, unfortunately, whatever it is for me, i just have to do it.

Grace:

There's nothing else Yeah.

Ken:

And I take the results. I'm not in the results business anymore, i'm just strictly creating the best thing I can create every day and leave it up to you know the labels and the marketing and the pluggers and you know everybody else.

Grace:

Yeah. So it's exactly what I teach on when you nailed. It is like the attachment from the outcome is your best friend as an artist.

Ken:

No doubt.

Grace:

On just the journey itself and enjoying creating and enjoying collaborating with other creative minds. It's like that should be the dream itself. you know, not the accolades and the fame and the wealth, Like that's a byproduct of living a really nourished and consistent artist life.

Ken:

Right. And two you know I mean we've got to be honest with ourselves too that the revenue streams for songwriters have almost, you know, dissipated to a point that you don't even know. Yeah, and I mean like that, i heard a statistic a few years ago that, like in 2000, there were like 3,500 paid songwriters in publishing companies on Music Grow, and I think now there's 300 or less. And so, thankfully, i've always had a little bit of business acumen about me, yeah, and I've always maintained business activities, a that don't require a lot of my time, but B, that pay the bills Absolutely And provide insurance, you know, for my kids and those things that are important. So I just don't know how anybody can make it today solely on being a songwriter, Oh yeah and you shouldn't.

Grace:

Honestly, i don't think it's a smart idea to put all of your hands on basket like that. I think artists if you're going to be on the artist side, specifically speaking to that, i would say it's smarter to have a very diversified portfolio, meaning you look into brand endorsements, sponsorships, you run songwriting retreats, like I'm doing, or I offer one-on-one Zoom coaching, just stuff like that, just to like. Have this other route to where I'm not putting all of this pressure on my creative process to be the bill payer.

Ken:

Right, and what that does for me is it keeps me. It keeps one foot in the real world all the time.

Grace:

Absolutely.

Ken:

It was so funny I went out to play. I think I told you that I went out to play out to the Pacific Northwest and the shows are great. And then I saw our friend Layland in Colorado and that show was great. But the people, they just want to let go. In that moment They come to these shows, that's never going to change. It's Bonnaroo this weekend, right, and those people are, all of those crazy people are down there. They just want to let go for 48 hours.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And do whatever it is they're going to do at Bonnaroo this weekend. And we, as creators, we have to find that balance of maintaining our artistic integrity to where we don't want to come home every day and slit our wrists because of what we've been working on all day. We have to find the balance between that and being able to deliver something that's going to let somebody take a little break from what they've got going on every day.

Grace:

Oh 100%.

Ken:

Yeah, you know, i resisted that, quite frankly, the first handful of years I was really up here a lot. Uh, i don't know how to say this, but you know Keith Sykes, for instance.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

I got to spend a really brief amount of time with him year, year and a half But through that year, year and a half I met and got to know Steve Earl. I met and got to know Rodney Crowell and Guy Clark And all of these fringe writers and artists that I love, right, And so I resisted the fact that music row commercial songwriting isn't necessarily that.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

That the music row model changes, sometimes daily.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

It seemed to have kind of been stuck in the current formula for a really long time, but it's shifting now.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And you know I have to adapt. You have to adapt by working for your project. We've had this conversation, you know, a few times. It's like well, how do we not compromise, grace?

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

How do we bring grace into this bigger space?

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

You know, and that's the challenge mentally, But at the end of the day we still got to write a great song.

Grace:

Right, And it's like it's such a subjective thing to the definition of success for artists or songwriters. is like such a subjective thing because isn't there's nothing wrong with wanting to get your music out to as many people as you possibly can? And if you're aware that that means staying within this formula and you're OK with that, then do you like go all in on that.

Grace:

I'm not going to judge the people who do that, because you know that pays right, like we all know that pays much better than this artistic, bohemian niche kind of direction, which is what I've mostly done at a majority of my career. But it's really cool to work with people like you who have been there, done that with all all you know aspects, all genres basically, and to experiment with just pushing myself to write for a broader audience.

Ken:

I think it's an experiment Like.

Grace:

I'm not going to judge anyone for wanting to be more quote unquote commercial. It's just part of the artist's journey.

Ken:

You know, well, yeah, and it's, it's. You know when, when you like, when you played the Bluebird the other night, having been out there and done that, i instantly caught that, ok, grace, grace has done a bunch of live shows. You were just so comfortable, you had your one leg crossed up in the chair and you were just, you were just being grace And and it's. You know, some songwriters don't have that because all they've ever wanted to do was sit in the room and write songs And that's absolutely cool. Yeah, but it's just a difference, you know, in delivering and you know you can go out and entertain for two hours, whereas a lot of hit songwriters actually can't go do that. And it's not wrong with that, you know they've got all the money.

Grace:

And we're figuring out where I'm on.

Ken:

And we can play the show, but they've got all the money, so you go. What do you do? You go figure that out. But I think that I'm blessed, and you're blessed on. A lot of people we know that we work with are blessed just to have that experience, yeah, of being able to stand up in front of two people, or 100,000 people, and deliver.

Grace:

Yeah, what would you say sustains? and you can speak to this on two different answers. Maybe what sustains an artist's career for the long haul, from all you've experienced Like, what could you see? does that for an artist?

Ken:

Well, i can. I can say this I heard I think it was Rodney Crowell say in an interview one time that when he got here, guy Clark immediately said to him there's two roads. You know, you go this way and be an artist, or you can go this way and be a star. Either one's fine, yeah, but just remember, stars burn out and fall from the sky, but if you won't be an artist, you'll always have a job.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

That's really. You know that, that when I heard that I went OK, well, I'm going to go the artist route. And you know there's a misconception, probably to some people who might listen to this We, we call the people who who have record deals and are putting out music, We call them artists.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Right And I've always just kind of went right. You know, and some of them are, some of them can could sit in a corner of a room with a guitar and just melt your face all night long with great songs, because they have, they know how to write, they know how to play, they know how to interact. Some of them don't, and that's just the reality of it. It's not a negative dig or anything, that's just the way this thing goes. So I kind of leaned more towards the artist side, even though I'm not trying to be a recording artist.

Grace:

Right.

Ken:

And you know I have to tell you the first royalty check that I got from a song was not a big one, but it made me go. Ok, you know, i think I like this.

Grace:

I like this.

Ken:

And you've been on the road So you know how the road is. It's not glamorous, it's not. There's so much downtime.

Grace:

Oh, that's the one, i that's kind of my favorite word.

Ken:

It's so much downtime that it gets a lot of people in trouble, you know, because it's just boredom, right Yeah. But at the same time, you know, i have had the fortune of being out on some of the tours with people and seeing the pull and the demand on their time. There's no way I want that.

Grace:

Yeah, like. what level artists are you speaking to?

Ken:

Well, a level, you know, country touring acts.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

I mean from the time they get on the ground, if they fly in, or from the time they show up, if they bus in their publicist, their manager, their songwriters that show up. You know they want a few minutes. Sometimes you go out and write with them. You know even, or try to write with them. There's radio people, you know there's always just this constant tug. Yeah, if you go out for some reason, if you leave the compound and you go out for dinner, then there's just people recognize you.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Just this constant. you know and that's the good thing too that people love your music and the artists that I've actually gone on the road with, to hang with and to write with are gracious about all of that stuff. Yeah, You know, but I know that not all are that gracious about it.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And again, there's no right or wrong way to do that.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

It depends on the individual, but I much prefer coming in and writing with you guys.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Coming back out here to my little two acres in the woods. It hasn't always been that way, you know, since I've been back with a sober perspective on life and family and what's really important. You know, i'll occasionally go to a writer's room, i'll occasionally play one in town, but most days I'm going to come in and write and visit and say howdy to some folks, but most evenings I'm going to be tucked away back out here in the woods.

Grace:

Yeah, would you like to touch on your sobriety and how it affected your writing?

Ken:

I'm a much better writer than I ever was when I was drinking and using and smoking and snorting and all that stuff. Everything it's quality over quantity. now I'm just not in the race anymore.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

I want to be here 20 years from now still writing songs and hopefully have a hit or two under my belt by then. Maybe You are Well. yeah, i like to say that I've already written them. They just haven't happened yet. but I want to do this as long as God lets me do it. You know, as the ideas keep coming, i want to keep catching them and getting them down and being part of it.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

I don't know what that looks like, because I don't know what our industry is going to look like next week, much less 20 years from now.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

But I have no control over that And I finally being sober, has allowed me to let that go. It's amazing And I didn't have that. It's frustrating when you don't have that perspective. In my opinion, it'll eat you alive. Oh, 100%, yeah, it'll eat you alive. Well, you don't need to see that. It just seems to get off. Sometimes I feel like my speech is a very annoying act. So I think, in my opinion, i don't as well have a bit of courage in getting it right at home, because I can't get it right.

Ken:

I'm after going out and playing for the first time since 2017. I'm even realizing I probably need to go do that a little bit more. Yeah, and and and, give this stuff away, not, not. I'm not saying I want to go work for free. I'm saying I'm saying give these gifts, every song is a gift and put it out there, because you never know. I'm not. I got the. Oh, what year was it? 2005 or six, maybe? A friend of mine at the time he's passed away now, but he was really close with the Marshall Tucker guys. He went on the road then for a few days and he called me up. He said, hey, they're going to record this song and this song of yours.

Grace:

I went.

Ken:

I went. What So? there's so much cool stuff that happens when we make our creations available, when we make our art available. We don't know.

Grace:

Yeah, be generous with your gifts is the way that Godin puts it, which I love.

Ken:

If I'm sitting up here hoarding away songs, you know, and not sharing them, nothing's ever going to happen with them.

Grace:

God didn't give you those gifts to just like keep on to yourself, right.

Ken:

And sobriety has just completely, you know, 180, 180 degrees change my perspective about everything And the songs are better, my willingness to chase something I normally wouldn't, it is really strong. Now I'm not closed up at all when I go into a room anymore, which I used to be. Everything's better being sober. Everything's better.

Grace:

Yeah, you're great to write with. I really enjoyed it, And I've also just heard this. this notion of it's not about you in the first place, right? It's not about whether using this song is amazing or not. It's about just sharing it in general.

Ken:

Right.

Grace:

That is your job Period.

Ken:

Yeah, And we still have an element And you've probably seen it by now after coming up here. Like you have, you know, there is an element of sometimes you're walking to a room with people and they will say we have to write a hit today. Oh, I hate that And it's in handicaps, the session, you know, from a good go. Hey, we all know that's what we're trying to do.

Grace:

Like what else are we?

Ken:

going to need to say it, But when it's spoken out into the room, it's just this energy shift that I can't explain. but it's this pressure.

Grace:

Yeah, I want one person number one.

Ken:

None of us know what a hit song is that elusive Yeah. If we did, we would be writing five a day.

Grace:

Yep.

Ken:

You know what I mean.

Grace:

Yeah. Now there are their objective, like obvious things that make a song great or mediocre, obviously, but like taste makers are what make it this vague, situation, right.

Ken:

I heard there's a great writer, billy eight. He's a great writer and an artist. He wrote that song choices that George Jones and Alan Jackson did a long time ago. But he's I heard him say one time that you know, anybody can write a song And I'm leaving proof of that right, anybody can write a song.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Not everybody can write a commercially viable song.

Grace:

Right.

Ken:

And so if you want to write commercially viable songs, you have to be where commercially viable songs are being written.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And that's Nashville, new York, la, historically. Yes, that's where it's been. There's a lot of cool stuff happening in the muscle shows. There's a lot of cool stuff that happens in Atlanta. New Orleans is, you know, really rich, you know, for songwriting. But if you want to do it commercially, you have to go to where that's happening.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

And it's just been amazing, particularly the last few years with the different mindset, how much higher quality my songs have gotten. You know, quality writers, quality human beings, it's quality songs I can definitely test that Whether they, whether they, whether they ever translate to dollars for my baby, for my babies. But I have just absolutely had a ball.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Since I jumped back in, you know, and committed to it for them, i've just I can't articulate the blessings, just the people, you know they're in my life now Versus the way it was, you know, before, and not that they were bad people, i was just doing stupid shit And it, you know, i was my worst enemy.

Grace:

I was too, and I've been five years, five and a half years sober. Now You've got over 11 years, is that right?

Ken:

No, I'm. November 23rd will be 10.

Grace:

Okay, but I totally agree And it's like you all of a sudden find yourself in these rooms with people who are genuinely good, people who want the best for you, and it's almost. It weirded me out a little bit when I first started writing at these current writing rooms. I was like what is going on? Like these people are so nice and so down to earth And I never been around that And maybe it's just because I'm coming from a certain area where I wasn't used to that.

Ken:

Well, i mean, let's just face it, memphis is tough.

Grace:

It's tough.

Ken:

It's tough, I mean it's beautiful, It's funky, It's Memphis, but it's tough to be an artist there. It's tough to be right there And I know we've met at curb and right in there a lot. You know I'm not signed there but I go there every day because it's so welcoming. Yes, My closest friends are there and everybody from four one up to four three. You know they're kind, they're welcoming, they're encouraging, they know about my family. There's girls that work on the top two floors, that pray for my kids every day.

Grace:

Amazing.

Ken:

Just because I've, you know, shared my story over coffee and they share their stories. I love to go right at Sony, i love to go right at Black River, i love to go over to Cape Lee and right, i mean, there's great people everywhere around here. You just got to find them and you know somebody new coming in. Everything's gonna, if they've never been here, everything's going to seem cool and right.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

I was told okay, you got to do this, this, this, this and this to get something on the radio. Well, i did all of those things and I remember sitting at well, there's a bar called losers And there's a bar called winners.

Grace:

They're right there? Oh yeah, i've seen it, yeah.

Ken:

Same guy owns both of them George Straight's manager, or Woolsey But my hangout was losers. It was like you got to go to losers to be a winner, and I remember sitting in there one day going man, casey Bethard's not in here, bryce Long's not in here, will Nance is not in here, phillip White's not in here, clint Daniels is not in here. Well, okay, maybe there's Clint, but he's not in here. Every day We Clint and I joke about that. Still, he's my brother but all of these writers that I admire and respected, they weren't there. They were either still working on a song, or they were in a demo session, or they were at home with their families.

Grace:

Yes, yes.

Ken:

So when new people come in and I meet new people in town, I try to let them know hey, you don't have to, You don't have to do all that.

Grace:

Yeah, exactly.

Ken:

It's not what you wanna do, right? If you wanna do it, go for it. Get in the middle of it.

Grace:

Go for it and learn the hard way, I guess.

Ken:

Well, just go get in the middle of it and experience it and do it. But I'm meeting a lot of younger kids coming in now who aren't interested in that. They're really serious about their craft and they're showing up and they're so good already. Yeah, there's a crop of I call them my girl power writers and we wrote with one this week, yeah, with Kennedy Scott, but she and Laura Massetti and Hannah Blalock, who's there in Memphis, leah Blevins, hannah Everhart I mean there's just these beautiful, talented, serious about their business, young writers. Davis Corley has been in town for a while and that guy, i mean he's a monster songwriter and he's humble and he's got his head on his shoulder and he's focused. Yeah, so there's a wave of new kids coming through that I'm encountering.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

And I'm sure there's a wave of riffraff coming through too, because the bus station's busy 24 hours a day, brother preaching.

Grace:

I mean, the way I see it is like artists are already in inherently tortured people. Yeah Right, I mean, am I not wrong Like?

Grace:

you know, the extra extremes of alcoholism and addiction and, granted, that's easier than done. If you were truly an alcoholic, you know that's a disease. It's not easy to just pass along, but I just see it as a lot of these kids come into town and they see that they need to live that life in order to be considered a true artist. I was one of them. I was mimicking my heroes like Towns Van Zandt and Guy Clark and drinking just as much as the boys and chain smoking on the road and just like living a really tough life because I thought that way I was a true artist.

Grace:

I was torturing myself with these addictions And now you know that the smoke is cleared. It's like what the hell Am I miting this so much better?

Ken:

I would have loved to gone down the road with chain smoking. grace, right, i mean.

Grace:

Oh, those are blurry years.

Ken:

Well, at the end of the day, you know to be a commercial songwriter, to try to be one, i mean, this is just still the place to be. I don't care what the business is doing, i don't care what the what the radios I mean. Teresha Radio is essentially a dinosaur now, which is sad really. It's still the way to make you know if you're going to have a big income earning song. it's still the way to go.

Grace:

It's funny, my manager told me that it's just in country music that radio is still really relevant.

Ken:

Yeah.

Grace:

Country.

Ken:

Yeah, and I believe that. Yeah, you know, the streaming models are what they are. We don't have any control over that. I know a lot of people work really hard to try to get us. I mean, they say they're trying to get us fair pay. But what is fair pay, you know? Yeah, i mean, how much is a song really worth? And we've seen through the inception of streaming and iTunes. I consume music just like everybody else. I got a Spotify. I do pay for it. I got a Spotify. I do too. Yeah, i'm in the ship and you know, every time a friend of mine has a song on a project that comes out, i buy the song, just my little way of putting some good karma out there. Yeah, but I consume music just like everybody else. I do still have vinyl. I do still have CDs. I think I got 3000 plus CDs out there in the barn.

Grace:

Me too. I'm like what the.

Ken:

You know, once in a while, go get them and listen to them, right? Just, you know, nostalgia or whatever, but at the end of the day, this is still where it's happening. Mm-hmm, i don't want to be anywhere else. Yeah, i'm about to be 52 in a couple of weeks and I feel like I'm just getting started.

Grace:

Well, i think that's a good segue into the final question. I ask everyone the same question, because it's usually a pretty juicy answer Have you ever wanted to quit? And, if you have, what kept you going?

Ken:

Oh yeah, i actually. I mean, i didn't quit writing. I quit writing or quit going to Music Row, obviously when my life turned upside down in 2013. I think I even remember like I'm in my little office now, but I've got the studio monitor behind me I put everything in the barn, i put my guitars away. It's like I'm not doing that anymore. It's bullshit. It's caused all this And I think within two weeks, i had everything back out and set up. Yeah, i've tried to quit a bunch.

Grace:

And everyone will assume that people have quit So that's why I ask it.

Ken:

Well, again, i didn't quit because of my pencil. My pencil is, I mean I got notebooks like you, just stacks of notebooks of stuff and work tape and voice memos And but I did. You know I'm just like everybody else And you know the reason I quit touring is I had some. I had a couple of heart surgeries in 2007. And it wasn't the touring, it was the whiskey and Krispy Kreme's. You know. Diet, oh yeah, and no sleep and you know, the whole.

Ken:

You know how that hope it works. But yeah, I've tried, I've tried, Of course I've tried. Yeah, When you go play a show and nobody shows up, then you go to the next town and nobody shows up and then you just go. What the hell? Yeah, i'm not doing this anymore. But then you get home and after you've slept, you know two nights in a row. It's like man, i can't wait to go do this again.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

Yeah, And, and I, but I had to. you know, face, I can't say it enough. My whole perspective on life was wrong until I got sober. My parenting was wrong. My relationship with my now ex-wife was wrong. My relationship with my friends and family was wrong. Everything was wrong.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Until I got sober. And then you know, hopefully, somebody asked me the other day you know what my main goal in life was? and I said to live longer sober for my kids than I did. You know, not sober, you know, and I'm, and I'm. Let's see, my oldest daughter was 13, 14 when I quit, so I'm over two thirds there.

Grace:

You are Bravo. It's very inspiring.

Ken:

I just want to be sober and I want to be a blessing to people and don't want people to dread seeing me coming through the door anymore.

Grace:

Oh, you certainly have been an inspiration and blessing for me.

Ken:

That's what we're working on, and we're going to write a bunch more songs than you.

Grace:

Oh yeah.

Ken:

And we're not going to quit And and heck, maybe we'll go play some shows.

Grace:

Yeah, well, we're definitely doing that show in September, so I'll get the top of mind.

Ken:

You never know.

Grace:

You never know. Well, thank you, yeah, and you're super just refreshing to just hear these stories. It's just, it truly is going to inspire a lot of my listeners to just keep plugging away and to keep focused on what actually matters in their artist journey.

Ken:

And that's right. Get up. Get up every day and write Yes, and I don't care what it is Journal entry, poem, write a letter to somebody. I do this. I do this thing every once in a while. I still have a phone book.

Grace:

I love it.

Ken:

And I'll just go through and pick random people.

Grace:

No way.

Ken:

Their addresses and I'll write them a letter, like I've known them forever.

Grace:

Oh my God, i love this.

Ken:

I sent John Prine one about a year before he passed and saw him consequently, and he said he laughed for hours because I wrote it like you know, like we were family members suggesting about the kids, i was telling about the pets and the dogs, and the car was broke down and you know I just went on this ramble, amazing, you know so. So get you a phone book and just write some random prayer It'll make their day, because nobody gets letters in the mail anymore.

Grace:

I legitimately want to try this now.

Ken:

Yeah, it's amazing.

Grace:

So just get random people and just write to them Do you have a return address on it ever, or do you just keep it to yourself?

Ken:

No, I put the return address on it. I've never gotten anything back, but I'd love to. What a hoot.

Grace:

Maybe we'll become pimp owls. There you go.

Ken:

Well, you may get a letter from me one day and I hope it makes you laugh because it'll be written like we've known each other forever The cat, you know. the cat passed away and he was 26 years old, and all that kind of stuff. This one got this for Christmas and didn't like it. and kids are just. I just write. Just write whatever's cut the first 15 minutes of my morning, or writing whatever's spinning in the brain. I just get it out. Most of it's mumbo jumbo, rambling rapid fire, insane thoughts about the crazy dream I just had, or whatever it is, and I time it. It's a disciplined, you know exercise And after that 15 minutes I'll get up and go make coffee and you know and really see what's coming.

Grace:

So it's like that Picasso story right Where he's scribbling, doodling, in a cafe and a woman walks over and she's like, and he crumbles it up right. And he's throws it in the trash and the woman's like, hey, i would love to buy that doodle, like your Picasso. And he's like, all right, that'll be like $4,000 or something. And she's like, excuse me, it's a little random sketch. And he's like, no, this took 40 years actually to make this doodle right, so it's the same with you getting to these amazing moments of writing the song, because you've been doing it for so long.

Ken:

Yeah, and the only way for me to write, you know, that song, or those songs that will be radio hits or that everybody will remember, i have to write my way to them. You know you got to write 10 crappy ones to get one good one. Yes, Let's just be honest.

Grace:

Yes.

Ken:

Just be honest about it.

Grace:

I was like it was even bleaker than that, in my mind at least. It's like I picked my top 90, first 90 songs, and then out of those I got 10 or 12 out of my daily song. Ready challenge.

Ken:

Well, I mean, if I go play a show and just say it's an hour long, I'm going to play the same songs I've been playing for 10 years.

Grace:

Right.

Ken:

Probably.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

Because I've just learned that everything I write is it's not worth investing the time to learn and go play. I'm happy if I get, if I feel like I have three great songs out of 10 today, i'm content with that And I say great song, they're all good.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

I don't and this is not an arrogant statement, but I don't. I mean every song I've written, probably for the most part in the last three or four years, is commercial. You know, has some commercial value, but they're not hits.

Grace:

Yeah.

Ken:

You know we just keep writing and one day we'll have a hit and we'll go. Man, i never saw that coming. I never thought that I wouldn't have picked that song to be the hit out of my whole catalog.

Grace:

I know It's like right It goes back to like just share it anyway, because you never know.

Ken:

Just never know.

Grace:

This has been great, thank you You have been just like a well of you know wisdom, and I know a lot of artists are going to love this interview, So thank you for your time.

Ken:

I hope so. Thank you, and I'll see you after next, i think a couple of weeks.

Grace:

Yeah, all right, see you Bye.

Ken:

Thank you.

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Grace Askew

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